Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello there. Sorry about my voice. I am fighting a cold. This is the second half of my interview with Tucker Max, where we explore his experience of success, the changes in his career, and of course his pursuit of mental healthcare therapy. In today's discussion, we're gonna talk more about his experience with M D M A supported psychotherapy. And this is a form of psychotherapy, which is just generating a lot of interest and has pretty strong research. Support is not yet legal or widely available within the us but is certainly something that is certainly something that looks to be a powerful treatment option for people who are recovering from post-traumatic stress disorder. So, Tucker is one of the few people who has had some early access to this form of treatment. And this is what we're talking about in this second half of our conversation. If you feel like you're coming in halfway through, it's because you are, and you can go back to last week's episode where I released the first half of my conversation with Techer. Welcome to the Zen Founder Podcast. This is a place where we have conversations about mental health and entrepreneurship. We have a pretty broad conceptualization of what mental health means. Sometimes depression, anxiety, sometimes relationships, or physical health. The goal here is to bring some calm into the crazy rollercoaster of ups and downs. That is life for many entrepreneurs. I'm your host. I'm Dr. Sherry Walling. I'm a clinical psychologist and an entrepreneur, married to an entrepreneur, live in the world of entrepreneurs. And I'm so pleased that you have joined us for this conversation.
Speaker 0 00:01:46 So there was a time in which psychoanalysis sounds like you felt like you moved through and took a lot from it, and then you tried some other things and we'll sort of skip over some of that. And then you ended up with M D M A therapy. What were you seeking from that?
Speaker 2 00:02:03 Okay. So at four years of psychoanalysis, uh, and then I, I started meditating the final year and it really helped cuz they're almost opposite ways, but then, um, psychoanalysis kind of ran its course for me and then right, I tried some of the therapies and, and they were good for a while and this and that, and some helped, but there was no real, I psychoanalysis gave me the tools where I met my wife about three years into it. And then that relationship was amazing for me. And then having kids was amazing a lot of ways. And so because of analysis, I had a lot of the tools I needed to deal with that stuff. But then as I kind of grew and progressed, I realized there was a level, there was a, an emotional level I was not getting to, right. There was a level of, a level of self, a level of problems that I had that I wasn't reaching through thought right, through rational thought or, or whatever. And, and nothing else I was doing was getting there. Like you
Speaker 0 00:02:52 Had a sense that deep inside yourself, something was unsettled or undone or not healed, or
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Not even deep inside myself, just even behaviorally, right? Like, yeah, I was nothing. I, it was so much better than I used to be, but there was still an undercurrent that it was almost like the, the only metaphor I can think of that even makes sense is like, imagine something's like a, a raging river and you dam it upstream and okay, you've gotta control, but there's still a trickle of water and you're trying to cut off all the water to make it sort of place you can build houses or whatever, right? So it was still, it was still there and it was still holding me back, to be quite honest. Like especially everything I'd done in my life before I started scribe my current company, I required me to be excellent on my own writing, investing, speaking, whatever. I, the only person I had to really rely on was me.
Speaker 2 00:03:42 And I was good at that, right? But, um, a company is a whole different thing, man. It's a whole different thing. And a good company, a well-run company, it is a tribe, it is a culture, it is a family in a sense, not really a family, but it has the relationships and, and it is all that sort of stuff. I mean, I, I did the smart thing and hired a CEO to run my company who's here now, but still, I mean, I'm a core part of this company. And so like, I, I realized I had a lot of stuff to fix, right? And, and this is one of those core business lessons that every single person in business should drill into their head that I realized really quickly that every virtually every single business problem we had was not a business problem. It was a, an emotional personal problem that was dressing up as a business problem.
Speaker 2 00:04:26 And then in our company, because I was the, the center of the company in a lot of ways, creatively right? That a lot of those issues were my problems. You know? And so I had to solve my problems. And so that was really the driver is that I realized that the, that the, the ceiling for growth at this company was my emotional problem. Not just, it was me and the c e o both we're kind of the, the, this, our company is kind of as two centers, him and I, and, and it's our, it's both of our us dealing with our emotional issues. And, uh, and we're on different paths and we have different issues, but like, I had to deal with mine. And so I just wasn't figuring nothing else was working. And so I've got a lot of friends, we have, you know, a lot of the same friends, but I have a lot of friends who are big into psychedelics and alternative plant-based therapies and whatever. And a lot of them for a lot of years had been like, oh, you need to try this and this and that. I'm like, all right, hippie, go take your <unk> drugs and leave me alone. And like, but like then it was like some friends of mine who are, who are very smart and very dialed in and who are not like weirdo like spiritual woo people who, I don't even mind them. It's just more like, these were very analytical people and I saw them. They're
Speaker 0 00:05:32 People that are like you, they're like you enough that you could sort of understand their logic and reason it,
Speaker 2 00:05:37 Right? Right. Exactly. I can think of one friend who's very, very, I, I won't say his name cuz obviously it's his business, but he's very famous. All of your readers would know who he is and very good at business, very well known at business and very successful at business. And my wife met him like five years ago, or eight years ago, no, five years ago. And, um, she's like, I don't like him at all. He's so creepy. And she just meant from an interpersonal standpoint. And I'm like, okay, I get it. Like, I, I get him and I understand him, and I, I kind of know how he is so I can deal with him, but like, she met him, or she, we had dinner a few months ago and she's like, wow, he's like almost a human being now. This, this, all these psychedelics must work well.
Speaker 2 00:06:15 Um, because like she, she likes it and she's very intuitive, very much a gut-based person. And yeah, she's, I, I really like him now or I, I, like now he's become a human now. I really like him, but like, I, I don't mind being around him anymore. Yeah. You know, and so like, uh, I was like, man, this stuff is working like that on him. He's got way further to go than I do. So I, I kind of did my research and I looked at all ayahuasca, L s d, psilocybin, dmt, all of it. And I think for me and my issues, the best place to start was M D M A because M D M A is designed for trauma, right? Is for, for PTs d resistant trauma. Like the studies are on, if you, if you are treatment resistant, P T S D victims are getting incredible 80 plus percent cure rates on.
Speaker 2 00:06:58 And so, um, I still, I felt like I had a lot of, in short, if you have an anger issue, it's generally speaking, it's because you have found anger to be an unconsciously to be an effective defense against loneliness and sadness and fear against her. And so the, the right against hurt, the anger chases those emotions away and it makes you feel powerful. And so, like most people in business that, that are angry, that's why. Right? Not all but most. And I squarely felt fed into the, it fit into that category. And so I was like, all right, I clearly have a lot of trauma I have not gotten to. So I took, uh, I kind of did my research. We did a book with called Trust Surrender Receive with one of the leading m DM a facilitators in the country, and she was willing to treat me. And so, you know, went to New York and I wrote a whole big piece on this, on medium. If you google tucker Max m dmma, it'll be, yeah, I'll post
Speaker 0 00:07:48 It in the show notes.
Speaker 2 00:07:49 Okay, cool. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it was nuts, man. Like, you want me to talk about the experience or what? Sure.
Speaker 0 00:07:55 Do it. Yeah. All right. So you write about it so people can like, do the deep dive there, but so,
Speaker 2 00:07:59 So generally speaking, for most people, what it does is it kind of brings back up the trauma. In short, what M MDMA does, is it, and I'm taking, I'm speaking colloquially, not like, uh, scientifically it makes your brain feel safe so that you can bring up prior traumas and process them, right? Because that's the only way you get PR trauma is that you process them usually empathically in the context of a tribe or, or some other person in this case therapy, right? And so M D M A makes your brain feel safe. So it brings up these, it, it lets these things come up and then you kind of get over them. And so I had a weird experience cuz most people on M D M A, from what I understand reading like trust for under receiv is almost all case studies, right? And the case studies people, like, they kind of relive the trauma, but not, not like a hallucinogen. It's not a, you're not outta your mind. I felt very loosened, very sharp. But most people, uh, like they'll either remember things or things that they remember but hadn't really experienced. So we experienced it and they'll kind of feel the pain and the trauma and then they'll let it go. But it doesn't, it's not as bad. Right. You kind of feel it in a more loving, safer way. Right. At least that's what all the case studies say. Mine was not like that. Mine was totally somatic. Like it was all in my body.
Speaker 0 00:09:14 So you experienced something in your body,
Speaker 2 00:09:16 Right? So I was like, if you've ever done electrical stimulation, like rehab from an injury, like the way they put the little pads on you and it, it, it flexes your muscles. It was like that all over my body.
Speaker 0 00:09:27 Like these like sort of electrical sensations or the sensation of the nerves firing or
Speaker 2 00:09:32 Like flexing, like my muscles were flexing and, and I mean like, especially my hips and my legs were like, you know, you you have a like jimmy leg or, or shaky leg. Yeah. Like it was like that, right? It was really intense.
Speaker 0 00:09:44 Was it uncomfortable? Like it doesn't sound painful per se, but it was not
Speaker 2 00:09:48 Painful at all. It was uncomfortable at first cuz it was weird. I was like, what the <unk> is wrong with you? Right? Yeah. And uh, and if I focused I could stop it, right? It wasn't involuntary, so to speak. But then as soon as I, like, I kind of surrendered again to the medicine, right? Then it came back and, and it was, it was uncomfortable in that it was, this is I think the metaphor I used in the, in the piece I wrote, this is maybe not the best metaphor, but it's, it's kinda all I have. It's like when you're taking a dump and it's like a big dump and it kind of hurts, right? <laugh>, like, it's not fun. Uh, but like, uh,
Speaker 0 00:10:21 But it's cleansing. There's a great release at the end. <laugh>. Right,
Speaker 2 00:10:24 Exactly. There's a re and, and you kind of need it. And it's like that. Like it's, it, it's, that's the thing I, I try to people understand in this, and it took me a while to understand, is that the trauma, the pain that you are running from is there and it has to come up. You cannot make it go away. There is no way to just make it go away. It's got to be processed. What's great about M D M A is that it makes the processing easier than it would be otherwise. It makes it available, it makes it easy, it makes it safer. It makes it as un painful as it could be.
Speaker 0 00:10:53 It's like turning off the part of your brain that's screaming, no, don't go there.
Speaker 2 00:10:57 Right? Right. Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:10:58 Your brain's just like, okay, we're cool here.
Speaker 2 00:11:00 We're, we're safe. And we get, but you are still processing trauma.
Speaker 0 00:11:02 Yeah. It's still, it's not simple. It,
Speaker 2 00:11:04 It's intense, man. It is really intense. But the cool thing about it is that it's, it's your friend, right? The, the medicine is your friend. Whereas like, I've not taken ketamine, but I have friends who done ketamine and the, and ketamine is very similar to M D M A except that it is not your friend. Like ketamine, you go in and you cannot get out and it like, it's gonna kill you. You feel you're dying. And like, there's no, like ketamine is really intense and I'm like, okay guys, you, you go ahead and do your ketamine. I'm I'm gonna stay over here with my friend. Right? <laugh>. Yeah. But yeah, it was, it was very intense. Like it was your
Speaker 0 00:11:37 Wife was with you in the session both times. Why was that, why was that important to you? Or why did you the two of you decide to do it that way?
Speaker 2 00:11:43 I would've done it alone if I had to, or just with Anne, with the facilitator. I want her there. We have a good, a very good relationship. But we also talk, she's in therapy too. We talk about this stuff a lot. Like, it's funny, just as a side note, people always ask me like, we have a pretty good marriage. And people are always like, yeah, how do you guys have such a good marriage? And I'm always like, well, 90% of it is you marry the right person right for you. So we we're the right person for each other. Right? And, and the other 10% honestly, like our, I don't understand people who say relationships are hard. If relationship's hard, it means you're with the wrong person. Our relationship is really easy now we have friction points like everyone, but our friction points are not our relationship.
Speaker 2 00:12:22 It's the baggage that each of us individually bring to the relationship and how that intersects with the relationship, right? Like my anger creates issues in our relationship, but that's my, it's my issue to solve. It's not hers. You know, and she has perfectionism issues and things like that that cause real problems in our relationship, but they're her issues not mine. Now we, we support each other and help each other, but we have to solve our own <unk> Right. And so the reason she came was, I think she was interested, she's a nurse practitioner, so she was interested just like, you know, this is, her career is dedicated to healing people. You know, like, like you heal mine, she heals bodies, same, same sort of thing. But then, uh, she wants to do it. She's pregnant now, so she couldn't do it. But uh, she wants to do it in the future, but then also it's just a way of getting to know each other more, to see more of each other. Right. And I'm always willing to share in our relationship. And she is too. But I, it's funny, we have a little inverted. Like I'm, I tend to be the, the, I'm the verbal creative overshare a little bit. And she, at least in that dynamic, has the, the more traditionally masculine, less verbal, you know, type, but more,
Speaker 0 00:13:27 More withdrawing.
Speaker 2 00:13:28 Right. More withdrawing more, uh, but more sort of show you I love you as opposed to tell you like, you know? Yeah. And so anyway, so we didn't do it together. She just was there. But she means a lot to me. She's very important to me. And, and I wanted, if I'm gonna go through that, something that intense, like I wanted her there. And so she was, she was there for the first one and then Anne gave us another dose. And, and cuz Anne trusted her that she did, she knew what she was doing. So I, I did my second dose at home with just her, which is my wife facilitating, like, I was on the bed and she was there. And it was even better then. Cause most of it was, it was me and in intern I was internally, but there were a few things, you know, Indian MAs got about a four hour, uh, lifespan in your brain almost exactly four hours. And, um, there was about 20 minutes or 30 minutes that was focused on our relationship. And, you know, a few things like I brought up to her and said to her and, and there were things, there was sort of things where she kinda laughed and she's like, I know, like, I, but I, like it was important for me to bring it out
Speaker 0 00:14:24 To say out loud. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:25 But yeah, so that's why. And, and, and it was great. I mean, it was, it was really good. Like, I'm excited for her to do it when, you know, when she's is ready mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:14:33 <affirmative>, and you wrote, you wrote about, it sounds like some of that dissipating anger. Like you fi you're finding things more tolerable without that big anger reaction, whether it's a crappy suit on an airplane or <laugh>, you know, other, other things that come up that just make life hard. Are there other things now that you're a couple months out from it that you notice are different about you?
Speaker 2 00:14:56 So just, just to, to make aware to listeners, I've only done two M D M A sessions. I know I'm gonna need at least one more. And then also I feel like psych I'm gonna do, when I, when when I do M D M A runs its course, I feel like I'm gonna try psilocybin and L S D and maybe even like five M A O D M T maybe we'll see, like, um, I feel like I, I, this is, I'm only the beginning of my journey right. At
Speaker 0 00:15:20 This point. Are you trying to solve a problem or are you, are you kind of experimenting and into sort of optimizing your health?
Speaker 2 00:15:26 No, I'm definitely, I'm definitely trying to solve a problem. Okay. Like, there, there is a level of self explanation that these medicines are facilitating.
Speaker 0 00:15:34 How will you know when you've arrived or when you're done? Or will you ever be done?
Speaker 2 00:15:38 I, I don't think there is a pH Wouldn't that be great if there was a finish? Right. Yeah. No, I don't think there is one. I may be done with M D M A, I don't know. The reason I'm bringing this up is I don't want to make it sound like I'm some, I'm an expert on my own experience so far. And that is it. Right? <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:15:51 Well that's, that's fairly standard treatment with M D M A, right? Is it's very, it's very few sessions. Three, sometimes six. Right. Like it's just, it's not a psychoanalytic sort of model of therapy or even traditional talk therapy where you're you're going a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 No, no, no. I don't know. My guess is, I, I don't even know enough to guess at least one more time what other people who have gone through several courses have told me is that the drug all or the medicine tells you when it's done. And all of two, three people have said this independently who are, don't know each other and they all say it's super weird, but you just kind of know like, okay, like there's nothing else to get to. Right. Which doesn't mean you're done with therapy, it doesn't mean you're done with anything. Self-exploration, whatever. It's just M D M A is designed for trauma, like to bring up trauma. Right. And so even Anne, she said, yeah, you know, like I, I take it now once every six months to a year just to stay connected to, she calls it clearing out the pipes and staying connected to the experience so that I can facilitate well, but she's like, I could stop it. It wouldn't, you know, like there's not a huge benefit for me anymore. And so yeah. Like I'll do that until I'm done. And then I've gotten really into, now a lot of, I I read a lot of Carl Young in college and I didn't under, I thought I understood it. I was totally wrong. No, now, but now I'm starting to get it.
Speaker 0 00:17:07 Nobody understands you <laugh>. Right,
Speaker 2 00:17:08 Exactly. Like I got Campbell, I got Joseph Campbell in college, you're getting it. Oh yeah. I love now. But there's way more layers to Campbell than I realized. And, and Campbell and Young and Otto rank and, you know, golden Bow and I mean those, and then a lot of the guys who were, who were the, the kind of early experimenters in combining, uh, psychedelics and psychoanalytic like semi and I started to read all those guys. And men, a lot of those dudes had figured, because there's some women too, a lot of those people figured some really figured some stuff out. And then you got the whole sixties thing where, where Nixon and his crew tied drugs to hippies so that they could politically suppress people. And then we had a whole basically 50 year cultural diversion. I think we're gonna come back and, and all of that stuff is like, this is the future for people. It's definitely for me. No doubt.
Speaker 0 00:17:54 Yeah. You know, I gotta, I gotta be honest, sometimes I feel a little bit like, okay, here's just like, here's another treatment trend. It's like, it's like E M D R all over again. Like it's the sexy thing that everyone's talking about and everyone's doing, and there's all these trainings and blah, blah, blah. But this
Speaker 2 00:18:08 Is different.
Speaker 0 00:18:09 But the, the research is really strong and it's not a trend in the sense that it has been around for a very long time in some underground ways, but also in some, you know, pretty soundly scientific ways. And I've seen some of the, the clinical videos of M D M A trials for P T S D and, and they're very compelling. Probably not for everybody. Like no treatment is for everyone. But I think it's a really neat experience for you to be on the forefront of something like that because it, it is sort of potentially changing and reshaping the way that we understand how to treat people.
Speaker 2 00:18:41 So, so to be clear, I'm not on the forefront. Like the, the forefront are people who like, like, uh, what's his face, who synthesized it, and all the people who tried it, and then the treatment people and like Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:51 But you're the, you're the communicator about it.
Speaker 2 00:18:54 I was gonna say, the only thing I'm doing is I am speaking a truth out loud that a lot of people know, but few people are willing to stand up and say and stay with it under their name. Right. And so like, okay, that's fine. Like, I feel like that's, that's kind of been my role in life, right? Is to, it's funny, like I used to always tell the story the emperor has no clothes. Right. And people be like, like I'd be like, yeah, that's my job is I'm the kid who's gonna say the things that, that everyone thinks and no one will say. And I'll never forget, my analyst said, she said to me, it was like our first or second, third month in psychoanalysis. She said, Tucker, do you know how the fairytale actually ends? I'm like, no, what are you talking about? Then the kid says it and they all snap outta the referee and like the king's embarrassed. She's like, no. And she sent me the link to the original like fairytale. Do you know how the fairytale, the actual fairytale ends?
Speaker 0 00:19:45 Does the king kill the kid?
Speaker 2 00:19:47 No, the villagers do. Okay. They kill the kid.
Speaker 0 00:19:50 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:51 Right. Because, and I, and I was like, holy <unk> because like, it makes total sense because the no one, no one likes the person that points out, not even their flaws, but reveals the truth that breaks their identity. Right. And, and so the original fairytale is a fairytale you would tell children, so they would learn to not speak truths that would disrupt the social order. Yeah. And I was like, like it
Speaker 0 00:20:18 Always hold backwards, really. Right, right. We celebrate the kid, he'll tell the truth. And, and that's our very American modern interpretation of it. But historically, the village wins, the village always wins.
Speaker 2 00:20:30 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:20:31 So they kill the kid,
Speaker 2 00:20:32 It's nuts. And like, oh, and then didn't, but it makes sense. I'm like, oh, that describes literally my entire life. I I I totally get it. Yeah. I totally get it now.
Speaker 0 00:20:42 And it's, it, it also, there's an element of like, that's the mental health problem with, with entrepreneurs, with leaders, with famous people, whatever, with people who are the ones who are saying the thing, who are out ahead of everyone else, who bear the responsibility, who are the center point of the company. I mean, they, they run that risk of the village will eat you if you step outta line. And whether or not they can articulate that they know it. And I think that's why we see whether it's suicidal behavior or suffering or pain or, you know, we feel it. The weight of all that angry projection.
Speaker 2 00:21:16 Yep, exactly. I I could not agree more. Yeah. It's so funny. I've seen it in my lifetime. I've seen the cultural shift when I first started, the people who hated me the most were the religious fundamentalists. The ones on the right. The ones who, who sex is evil. Like that. Like, you're old enough, you're about my age. We grew up with those people. Oh, totally. And in my lifetime, those pe it is totally shifted. Those people are almost gone. Yeah. And now it's the leftist fundamentalist that hate me, but they're both fundamentalists. It's just their God is totally different. Yeah. Right. And, and, and their professed beliefs are different, but they are exactly the same.
Speaker 0 00:21:53 Everyone on the edge of the
Speaker 2 00:21:53 Mindset. Yeah. This, the mindset is exactly the same. It's, I it's, it's mind blowing to me to see now, like the social justice warrior authoritarians and I grew up with the, the Christian, you know, conservative authoritarians, and I'm like, oh my God, these are the same people. Literally the same people. But it's the exact same mindset. That's actually something I don't think I've ever seen anyone really truly are, I've seen people articulate it politically to talk about how, you know, like communism can go so far left, it becomes fascism, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. Like that's a well-known political thing, but socially, but
Speaker 0 00:22:30 Psychologically. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 00:22:31 I don't think that's, I, I don't know. Do you know of anyone who who studies that or who's articulate?
Speaker 0 00:22:36 No, but it's a, it's a, it's sort of dogmatic rigid personality that Yeah, it doesn't really matter what it attaches to. It's, it's hateful.
Speaker 2 00:22:45 It has to attach to a belief system and then defend that belief system. And the belief system has to be somewhat absurd. And it's got, there's gotta be things that like, are ridiculous about it because that's like any cult, you've gotta believe a lie to prove you're a part of the group. Right. The in group signal. And then like, you've gotta, it's gotta be such a, the, uh, uh, belief system so that it can ostracize anything like that's not perfectly aligned with it. And then like, there's a few other things with it, but it's crazy. I've seen it in my lifetime applied to me. Like, you can, I can look at the emails I get. I don't get anything from Christian fundamentals anymore. And now it's all crazy leftist, like whatever. But it's the same emails.
Speaker 0 00:23:23 Yeah, it's
Speaker 2 00:23:24 The same emails, it's
Speaker 0 00:23:25 The same thing. It
Speaker 2 00:23:26 Just sub out. It's like madlibs. Right? Like I could write the madlib sort of stuff.
Speaker 0 00:23:31 Change some nouns around. Right. Exactly. I have, um, just one more question for you, and then I I, I know you're gonna roll, but you've used the word a couple times in our conversation and I'm curious what you mean by it, and that's the word soul.
Speaker 2 00:23:44 I don't know. I'm not sure that's the hon the honest answer because I'll tell you why. Um, okay.
Speaker 2 00:23:50 I probably, I'm not sure if I would've said this explicitly, but at least five years ago, I would've had a very mechanistic sort of view of soul. Meaning like, the soul is just an embodied phenomena within the, the mind. There's probably nothing, you know, like atheist the way an atheist thinks, right? Yeah. I definitely don't believe in God the way a religion would would talk about it, but like between psychoanalysis and mdm, a I worked with a shaman and she did all kinds of like an in like a Peruvian shaman, all kinds of stuff that like just isn't what Steno, gra called a, there's a name for 'em. I can't remember now. I was reading about this, but b basically like things that can't be explained. Right? And so I dealt too, I've seen too much and dealt with too much. And especially on even just in DM a, like I come both times I've come out and I wrote about this in my article. I had these visions and not, not like a psychedelic like, uh, Joan of Ark vision just more. I, I don't know, it
Speaker 0 00:24:45 Felt like there was something outside of you that was tapping into, or even something so deeply inside of you that you Right.
Speaker 2 00:24:50 One or the other. And, and so when I say soul, I don't know what, I mean, I don't think soul is a fully embodied phenomenon anymore. A at a minimum, what I think is that we, we do understand like pretty well now in, in, there's not much we understand about quantum physics and quantum mechanics, but we do understand that the energetic connections between atoms are way more intertwined than we ever thought, right. And, and there's a lot, and no one we're at the, we're at the very, very beginning of the beginning of understanding that stuff. But there is actually a real scientific foundation for at least it's not ruled out, I should say, for the idea that, that we are all energetically connected and that our, if you actually understand physics, you do understand that we are just, we are just energy, we are just embodied energy.
Speaker 2 00:25:37 Like that's not even a debatable thing for sure. Yeah. We're just all different forms of energy. That's it. But there is a very good scientific foundation for the idea in some form or other that our energies are all connected in one form, or it's exactly what Buddha said. All things are the same. Right. And he may have been exactly right, like he may have been exactly right. And so I don't know what I believe anymore because I feel like in terms of understanding this stuff, we are no different than the Catholic church in 1100. Like, we don't know anything. We don't know anything at all. And if you think you know what you're talking about, you just haven't actually looked at enough data yet to realize
Speaker 0 00:26:17 You haven't bumped up against the edges yet.
Speaker 2 00:26:19 You ha you're not even close. You, you haven't even looked at the established data. Look at the established data on the, the physics of energy and you immediately be like, oh, sh we don't know anything. Any good physicists will tell you, oh yeah, we don't know anything.
Speaker 0 00:26:31 And to some extent I think we can say that about human psychology. Like we're just these really intricate, complex matrices of all of these different variables. And I think one of the things that I have appreciated about your work and your willingness to talk very publicly about your experience in therapy, M D M A, psychoanalysis, whatever, is that sense of, of openness and experimentation and mystery, right alongside the desire to be better, to change, to feel healthier, to take better care of the people around you to run your business better.
Speaker 2 00:27:02 Yeah. No, it's, it's hopefully too because it'll mean we live in a better world, but I think our grandkids and definitely our grandkids, grandkids are gonna look at us and laugh at how blind we were to things that were gonna be totally obvious to them. You know? I mean, if you think about it, and most smartest, most advanced personal, alive in 1750 was wrong about literally everything. <laugh>. What makes you think that we're that far off from them? <laugh> we're not. That was only, you know, 300 years ago, not even. Right? Yeah. Man, if we're right about 10% of what we think now, I think we'll be lucky. And
Speaker 0 00:27:35 Then when they get there in the future, they're also gonna be right. You know, it's just this, this the human
Speaker 2 00:27:40 Condition. So we're right about percent or something <laugh>. Yep.
Speaker 0 00:27:44 Hey, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. You're a fun, fun guy to talk to.
Speaker 2 00:27:48 Definitely. Thanks for having me. Anytime
Speaker 0 00:27:50 And, and really not an asshole <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:27:52 I can, I can be, be careful. I can be, there's still, there's still triggers left. I'm not done with my therapy yet. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:27:57 Okay. You and me both.
Speaker 0 00:28:03 I am so grateful to have had this conversation with Drucker and really value his willingness to be upfront about his experiences and what he is learning and how he's growing and changing. If you are in a place in your life where growth and change is something that you know feels like needs to happen, here's an invitation to join me in the spring installment of the Zen Tribe Program. This is a super small group of entrepreneurs. We capitate eight and we meet weekly for about eight weeks and do kind of a deep dive into growth and change. And it's the kind of thing that is so much better to do together that being in a small group of folks really helps broaden your perspective and provides a lot of support and problem solving and ideas for things that you might wanna change in your life. So if this is something that's interesting to you, go to the Zen Founder website and look for Zen Tribes and sign up, or feel free to email with me with any questions that you have. That group is starting the last week of February, so you don't have a tented time. Act fast.
